I have been very reliably informed that property formerly known as Sandyforth Nook on Fleetwood Rd near the Primitive Methodist Church, has deeds dating back to 1875. The two adjoining properties according to the deeds were originally built for sisters. The cottages were later sold at auction at the Gardener's Arms pub in 1889 and I have put them on Thornton's Top 10 Oldest houses on the website in fifth place.
I've been out and about this week taking pictures up at Stanah (and I might add falling in a dyke in the process! .. mountain goat I am not!). I noticed the wall like feature which runs across Ramper Pot at the point where the floodgates were (white spot on map) on the aerial map and went for a look see.
I've been out and about this week taking pictures up at Stanah (and I might add falling in a dyke in the process! .. mountain goat I am not!). I noticed the wall like feature which runs across Ramper Pot at the point where the floodgates were (white spot on map) on the aerial map and went for a look see.
I've walked down that way many times and have never spotted it. If you do go for a stroll its most noticable past Ramper Pot on the way round to the jetties where there is a bench at the point it crosses the path. I very scientifically stuck my finger in it and it seemed to be just earth but you can see at the very edges that it once stood quite high.
This is a piece of useless information that you can impart to the walking partner of your choice next time you are down at the river.
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It'll be just my luck that the Google satelite will have been passing over as I did my not so graceful slip. Watch this space! lol
ReplyDeleteThat explains the 'Ramper'...now what about the 'Pot'?
ReplyDeleteI haven't got the foggiest Brian. I initially thought a pottery but there is nothing on any of the maps or censuses. I hope ramper pot farm wasn't growing special 'herbs' ;-)
ReplyDeletePerhaps is was the Thornton wing of the Wardley's.
ReplyDeleteThe "Pot" could refer to a wicker fish trap used to catch Crabs and lobsters ect;
ReplyDeleteThe only "herbs" on that part of the marsh is Sanphire grass,If we charged a shilling a carrier bag full we'd have made a fortune,its still being collected.
One of the fields above Ramper Pot is called 'Pot Hey' on the tithe maps, if memory serves. I wonder if that's got anything to with it?
ReplyDeleteDont remember a mention of Pot Hey on the Deed Map,If i remember correctly it was previosly called the Drumonds,My family moved there in 1946 from Lea in Preston, prior to that at Lodge Farm Little Thornton.Re the inlets and banking,i've know and sailed the river in the dim and distant past,and know from experience that the inlets and gullies are forever changing,been stuck on the sand banks many a time. Another piece of useless information I've walked across the river from just past the Bone mill to Hambleton a few times,would'nt advise it if you dont know the river,there are Quicksands in some places.
ReplyDeleteHi James
ReplyDeleteMy friend is a marine biologist and wanders around eating things she finds at the river .. I'm to worried about a dog having peed on it.
Hi Brian
Its more than likely something to do with the field and will have a look see. I think the Ramper part is older than the pot but can't quite figure out what it means.
Hi James
ReplyDeleteI didn't think that would have been possible but there must still be old crossing points if you know where to look.
At one time the raw sewer outlet from Poulton was at the mouth of Skippool creek,there used to be a pumping station on Old Mains lane,Theres a rumour that the work going on both sides of the road just past Skippool Garage has something to do with the house building on Garstang Road east,
ReplyDeletetheres a lot of houses for sale recently.
James,
ReplyDeleteIt's possible that on the Deed Map it had a different name. Hold on a minute...I've never tried linking to an image at Imageshack like this before...but hopefully this should take you to a bit of tithemap showing the location of Pot Hey. Actually, it's only one field removed from Mill Stoop now that I come to look at it.
Anybody know what a wrangot is, incidentally?
I looked it up cause it looked curious and if you zoom in it reads Wranget .. I think.
ReplyDeleteWranget = grass lane or bridle path from farmhouse to far field
I took it to mean the now path but it does seem to be referring to the sticky out loopy bit.
I found this in a book I scanned ages ago about the meaning of field names .. knew it would come in handy at some point.
ReplyDeletePot(t)a deep hole; land covered in holes; a hollow in a hillside.
Thanks for that Brian,its definately on my cousins land,I also noticed that the name was "Mill Stoop"as you probably know a stoop is a step, or I've seen it used as the name for the back leg of a windmill whose upper deck could be turned into a favourable wind,I;ve seen them in Holand and the Fens area.It also show that there are only 3 pits in the area so I think that if there was a Mill it was probably wind driven. I dont think the 3 pits could generate enough force to drive a mill apart from the one on top of the hill they are not very deep.
ReplyDeleteRE: Wranglet never heard it before, but it would be the farthest point from Stannah Hill Farm.
Hi,H.H.I think yours is probably the correct explanation, i remenber before Mixamatisis that that area was over run with Rabbits,
ReplyDeleteUsed to go over with my Granddad 1n the 30s,the only other way was via Shard Bridge a 4 mile walk ,More importantly it cost a penny to cross,it was used by a lot of people who had relatives ower Dyke. Lived on a house boat from 1946 to 1948 so saw the river daily.
ReplyDeleteJames,
ReplyDeleteJust off the map are a number of other ponds, most of which will have silted up massively since Alice de Singleton's mill stood somewhere in the area back in the thirteenth century.
I'm sticking with my theory that a watermill (probably Alice's) used to stand opposite Raikes Farm (where all the mill fields are marked on the tithe map) and was fed by water gathered and channelled from Mill Stoop. (Stoop is also the name for a water container...usually of a religious nature, I admit, but a water container nonetheless.)
Having said that...if there was a windmill up there I'd quite cheerfully excavate it. Although not this year...we're going to be very busy elsewhere this year.
Hi Brian
ReplyDeleteAny news yet on your big dig at the end of May? How long are you going to keep us in suspense. I'm planning on coming down for a look if you are allowing spectators.
Melanie,
ReplyDeleteThe latest news is that it's been pushed back until June. (This has nothing to do with Wyre Archaeology, but is entirely my fault. Or rather the fault of certain drugs dealers over the road from me who need to be evicted before I can move forwards with my plans to take over the archaeological establishment.) I'll send you the new dates by e-mail, as soon as they've been announced.
HI Brian, Had another look at your map, but fail to see were Raikes Farm comes into it.The peninsular River side of Underbank from Cockle Hall to the Wild Life Park belongs to Stannah Hill Farm.
ReplyDeleteRaikes farm land is to the right of Raikes road,going towards Abbetstead,The land to the left next to the Catholic Church vicarage also belongs to us.All the other land on the left down to the river belongs to Thornton Hall Farm
and there are only 3 pits on our land.
Hi James
ReplyDeleteI've added a map to the main post as I couldn't see how to do it in the comments. It's not very clear but if you click on it it should enlarge. There are 3 fields near Raikes farm called 'mill field' and 1 called 'east mill field'. I've had to type them on but they are shown on the 1847 Ordinance Survey map.
Hi H.H,raikes farm land is 2 roads (Raikes and Underbank and 2 hills away from the site of the mill,(If I;ve read the map correctly The Mill site is on the peninsula east of Cockle Hall. As i said Tommy Raikes farm land is to the west of Raikes rd,(other side to Raikes to Abbeystead,)and runs to Lambs Road(Now used for car boot sales),There was a number of pits on his land,they were filled in a few years ago as he and another land owner in the area ((Not us)wanted to build on the land Aledgedly,
ReplyDeleteCorrection;Should have said Mill Site East of Ramper on Stannah hill land NOT Cockle hall.
ReplyDeleteMelanie,
ReplyDeleteCheers for that.
James,
Back in the thirteenth century the field layout would probably have been different than it is nowadays to some degree and the land would certainly have been owned by different families. (Raikes Farm itself didn't exist until the 1690s.)
It's highly likely that the fields overlooking Ramper Pot (i.e. Mill Stoop, Pot Hey etc) and the fields around the modern day Equestrian Centre and Raikes Farm, back in the thirteenth century were all under the same ownership.
The reason I've linked the Mill Fields at the Equestrian Centre on Melanie's map to Mill Stoop at Ramper Pot is because, if you study the map, you'll be able to join the two together with one straight line.
This line follows (from Mill Stoop) the lane now leading to Ramper Pot, via another field (not titled on the map unfortunately, but it is there) named as Stanibridge on the tithe maps (which is Saxon for Stone bridge) where the lane meets Underbank Road, then continues through that long narrow field (which probably explains it shape) towards the 'mill pond'. It's downhill all the way, and seems likely to follow the original thirteenth century mill race.
It all makes sense to me. Then again so did Twin Peaks...
Fine but were are all these pits above Mill Stoop?
ReplyDeleteThe field with the Public Foot path leading to
Wardleys Ferry is the highest point on the peninsular in all directions. Mill stoop is to the south of the highest point so could only get a water flow from the pits from the east of it. all the other pits marked are below the mill.
Hi H.H., Re; Stannah Hill Farm House,if you look on the map you posted, its next to field 320 in the orchard opposite the farm buildings
ReplyDeleteJames,
ReplyDeleteIt's possible that not all the ponds were connected, just enough to fill the stoop. The stoop itself nine centuries ago would most likely have been much larger and much deeper, so there's even a chance that it didn't require any other ponds to fill it at all.
As for the water getting over a slight rise before heading down to the mill, dig a deep enough channel and you can effectively move water anywhere. Add to that the fact that the lie of the land itself changes over time and, from an archaeoligical perspective, the theory still holds water, so to speak.
If we even get permission to dig Mill Stoop, we should be able to find out one way or another. Considering the size and depth of old mill races and ponds, I strongly suspect that a lot of the story lies buried beneath the soil.
I should perhaps add that the difference between the maximum height of the Mill Stoop pond and the various potentially lower ponds (none of the individual pond heights are actually recorded as such) is only between two and three feet. When chanelling water it would be the depth of the pond that counted rather the height of the ground or the contour around it.
ReplyDeleteIf all of the bottoms of the ponds were on the same level, then the relative height of the ground wouldn't matter. And providing that the connecting channels were more than four feet in depth there wouldn't be any problem getting the water to flow from one pond to another.
That does make sense, doesn't it? I think I just heard my temporal lobes calling out for another whiskey.
Hi Brian
ReplyDeleteI understand you but then I've been on the vodka ;-)
The only thing for it is for you to dig it next year and sort it out once and for all. I've been looking into tithes for the website and am going to look and see if there are any documents relating to tithes and poulton parish which would have covered Thornton in 1245. Am thinking that the mill in Thornton (whatever it might be)would have been liable to tithes and might be mentioned. If only it was that simple.
If I'm going to the records office I might as well make a day of it.
ReplyDeleteMelanie,
ReplyDeleteWe've already got a long lost tunnel at Little Marton Mill to track down and uncover next year. Not to mention completing our potential mediaeval mill excavations at Stalmine. Looks like it could be a year of mill related digs all in all.
Am glad to hear you have got loads going on. It really annoys me that our little corner of England gets totally overlooked as 'of no interest' where nothing could possibly have ever happened.
ReplyDeleteMelanie,
ReplyDeleteWe prefer to keep quiet about it. We don't want all those southerners coming up here having a look around. They might realise how good it is and want to stay.
HI every one Just stand back and think, you've not only stannah hill to contend with, stand at HillyLaid X roads and see how the Field facing you (Downings meadow) rises and then Stannah Hill thats 2 large inclines you have to over come., so there would'nt be any flow from that direction.Some of the pits on Thornton Hall Farm to the south are on high ground but water would have to run down hill and across a tidal gully and then up hill again. I've worked that area for more years than I care to remember,and despite your 14th century map which by all accounts the cartography at time was wildly wrong, there is no way you can get water to run up hill, according to your map the mill is half way up the highest hill in the area I would have though that our ancestors would have chosen a better site, at the bottom of one of Thornton Hall farm field for example, The one that comes out by Raikes rd entrance to Thornton Hall Farm there are several large and deep pits on the top of the hill in that field.
ReplyDeleteJames,
ReplyDeleteWe don't have a fourteenth century map unfortunately. (I wish we did. It'd answer a few questions I must admit.)
The mill itself would have stood on the land next to the equestrian centre on Raikes Road. Mill Stoop is at the top of the hill at Ramper Pot. According to my modern O.S. map the hill is 17 metres above sea level and the equestrian centre is less than 10 metres above sea level.
There might well be a rise between the two. I'll have to take your word for it because those fields are inaccessible to me. The modern O.S. map though does show a contour of 10 metres looping round just before you get to the site of the mill itself.
However, a channel cut through said rise, or even the race being diverted (possibly to the rectangular earthwork that, all matters considered, might well have been a reservoir next to Raikes Farm) could compensate for that.
I've posted this map at Imageshack showing the direction the water would have been flowing. You can see the contours on it. Like I say, there is a contour of 10 metres right before the mill itself, but a simple detour or channel would soon sort that out.
Possibly. (I keep adding that disclaimer because you might well have a point.)
Hold on...got a better map here. I've combined the 1840's tithe map with the modern OS map and added the direction of the possible mill race.
ReplyDeleteClick here for map.As you can see, it only requires a slight detour out of line (directly to a pond -- possibly by coincidence) to avoid going up hill. That is, to avoid going up any contours on the map. Like I say, I don't know the exact layout of the land, but the water is overall flowing downwards so, one way or another, it should still be able to reach the mill.
Am not sure if this is going to work but here goes ...
ReplyDeletehere is a picture looking up the road to ramper pot (before the bend) with mill stoop on the top of the hill in the distance. Please note Russ and Tinka making like a tree!!
here is a picture looking the othe way away from mill stoop.
Hi, everyone, I think that theres a bit of
ReplyDelete"make the evidance fit the situation going on here,I can tell you that there is not enough water on Stanna hill to reach Raikes farm without soaking in to the ground on the way,no matter how you deviate the route you would still have to cross a road and even if you followed stannah rd you would still have to go up hill to reach raikes farm land were the suposed mills are situated,a distance or at least 2miles why bother,.Before WW2 there were a number of pits on Lambs Hill and several deep pits on the ridge on top of Thornton Hall farm Fields (Some of these were filled in and hedge rows grubbed out as we had to become self suficient in food in 1940.), Any Mill owner worth his salt would have built on the river bank were the Yacht Club stands, getting the benifit from at least 5 pits directly in the imediate area..
In any case Stannah hill,Lambs Hill and Woodhouse hill would be ideal spots for windmills so why go to all the trouble of a large construction project to move water 2 or 3 miles it would be a major project today with all the machanical equipment available,I credit my ancestors will a great deal mo sense than than that.Further its common knowledge that maps were wildly inacurate prior to the 1830 ordinance survey,and even then there were many discrepancies Notably on the Derbyshire area map circa 1830.
i've no need to remind you that The FYLDE was known as WINDMILL LAND.
Hi James
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to stay impartial on here as it's my blog.
I do however agree with your point and have stated similar on the Wyre Achaeology Forum here.
Having said that Brian has seen similar sites to this locally through Wyre Archaeology so his experience has to count.
I would also think that whatever mill was there in 1245 could at a later stage have moved and become a windmill as technology progressed.
ReplyDeleteHiH.H., thanks for the link,most interesting.theres so many veriables though. The bottom line with me is that the contour lines have not changes since the 1930s and looking at your excellent maps nothing has changed prior to that time, and I doubt that with so many other mills in the area, it would not be worth anyone while to undertake such a large project
ReplyDeleteNow if you want a perfect site for a Water Mill
have a look down New Lane behind the Bungalow on your right before you get to Burns Side,theres a fast flowing main Dyke,( dont know were it comes from Been told all the way from Lytham?)it goes under the railway lines at the top of New Lane by the level crossing,runs behind School Rd, Coming out by the bridge at the Bay Horse and on to Hilly Laid (now Culverted) Runs under the road by the Bridge at Brook Farm and on to the river.
Not trying to be argumentative but carn't understand why a watermill would be placed there.
Hi James
ReplyDeleteI will have a look at where you say. I think everybody has their own version of where and what they think it is. I hope when I go to the records office that I will find a clue but am not holding my breath!
Oakily dokily.
ReplyDeleteMichelle popped along to the library yesterday to take a squint at the dialect dictionary for 'Stoop' and discovered that, in the north of England, a stoop referred to a sudden incline, especially of water in a river. That would fit nicely with Mill Stoop and the fact that the millrace would have had to head downhill (somewhat steeply at the start) to reach the millfields.
James,"...theres a bit of
"make the evidance fit the situation going on here...""
Absolutely. In archaeology we have to have a working theory. A walkthrough of the landcape (which of course we haven't done as such because we've never had permission), aerial photographs, a close contour survey and geophysics -- each stage allows us to tweek, modify and/or discard any particular speculation.
At this stage, of course, that's all our suggestion is, speculation. That's why I always add my usual disclaimer. By the time we reach the 'sticking of spades in the ground' stage we'll have narrowed the evidence down to a theory that actually works."I can tell you that there is not enough water on Stanna hill to reach Raikes farm without soaking in to the ground on the way."
That's right...which is why they built millraces out of stone and stuff. The fact that the stone involved will have been recycled over the centuries by local farmers etc. is just part of the course (so to speak) in archaeology."...no matter how you deviate the route you would still have to cross a road..."
Or go under it, which is where Stannibridge comes in. That's a Saxon or early mediaeval word, appropriate for the period we're dealing with here. If there wasn't a millrace (or some other watercourse) running underneath Underbank Road at Stannibridge, then I have to ask why did they bother to build a stone bridge?"Any Mill owner worth his salt would have built on the river bank were the Yacht Club stands..."
Which back in those days was owned by the Banistre family. Alice de Singleton wouldn't have been allowed to build on somebody else's land no matter how much salt she was worth."In any case Stannah hill,Lambs Hill and Woodhouse hill would be ideal spots for windmills."
Probably, but back in the thirteenth century windmills were incredibly rare. The pope levied a tax on windmills because the wind was, apparently, regarded as the breath of God. (Fortunately they didn't apply any similar bodily functions to water power.) Watermills, therefore, were far more economical to run."...why go to all the trouble of a large construction project to move water 2 or 3 miles..."
It's more like a quarter of a mile from the top of Ramper Pot to the millfields in a straight line, and despite it being a large engineering feat, the monks in Pilling at the same period were contructing the huge dyke system still in evidence today to drain the moss, so it's not exactly unheard of."...if you want a perfect site for a Water Mill
have a look down New Lane..."
Which of course is in Norcross (possibly Carleton, I'm not sure which). Back in the thirteenth century Thornton consisted of the area around Raikes Road and nowhere else, so our mill must have been situated somewhere in that vicinity.
I should add that there are several other mill fields about, notably a couple on the other side of Lambs Road now under the modern housing estate. We discarded these as being early mediaeval though because, at that period, the area was moss and turbary. Presumably those mills were constructed later."...it would not be worth anyone while to undertake such a large project."
The Millenium Dome springs to mind.
Like I say, it's just speculation, but the theory as it stands still works for me. Perhaps at some point we'll get permission to see what's really under those fields (they're that long thin shape for a reason, incongruous to all the other mediaeval field shapes surrounding them) and then we'll know one way or the other.
Addition to the above. Why would a mill be required at Stannah,any way. the land would have only been sutable for dairy farming not much better today, Been there done that tried to plough most of it with little sucess during rationing when the Min of Food wanted cereal crops grown everywere,had to use horses to pull the tractors out.,
ReplyDeleteJames,"Why would a mill be required at Stannah,any way. the land would have only been sutable for dairy farming..."
ReplyDeleteThere's plenty of evidence of mediaeval ploughing around Stanah, so presumably the land was a bit more productive 800 years ago.
As to why Alice de Singleton wanted to build a mill there in the first place, I honestly couldn't say, but the documentary evidence along with the mill fields on the tithe maps tend to suggest that she did regardless.
Your idea that the mill was fed from pits on the Lambs Road side could very well 'carry water' so to speak. In fact, to be honest, it probably makes more sense. Like I say, we'd need to have a closer look at the terrain and do all the usual close contouring and geophysing and stuff. But your suggestion would certainly explain the rectangular hollow by Raikes Farm (that it was, perhaps, the mill reservoir) and some of the deep dykes running through those fields between Raikes Road and the school.
We'll bear it all in mind if we ever get the chance to investigate closer.
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